Last tango: Investigators sort through BART's labor impasse

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Investigators questioned BART workers, managers, and negotiators throughout the day in Oakland.
Joe Fitzgerald

Much of BART's dirty laundry was aired at the first hearing on the negotiations in Oakland today, part of a seven-day investigation called by Gov. Jerry Brown after Sunday night's talks between unions and management threatened the Bay Area with another strike.

The particulars of each side's bargaining offers are normally hush-hush, but the hearing was a chance for the public to get a peek into what each side has been asking for. As the three-person panel on the governor's fact-finding board sat at a long table facing the audience, management and unions sat on separate tables, much like that in a courtroom. 

Amid all the particulars of wages and economics, the unions levied  major allegations over safety concerns, saying that BART management hasn't incorporated safety changes after the deaths of workers.

Saul Almanza, a BART representative from SEIU Local 1021 and a 17-year railroader, showed the board a set of photos of the places where BART workers had been killed on the job. 

"I'd like to start out with the picture with the part where Robert [Rhodes] was killed," he said. "The area where Mr. Rhodes was killed was very dark, and remains that way today. Look at the picture to the left, and that’s where Mr. Rhodes was standing as the southbound train proceeded through the interlock. It was dark and loud, and that’s where he was struck as he stood there with no place to go."

Almanza said that he brought up lighting improvements to his management at many levels, many times. When no improvements were made, that’s when the safety issues became a major point in bargaining, one sticking point that led to the four-day strike in early July. 

Paul Oversier, BART's general manager of operations, made it a point to hammer home how pained the Bay Area was during the strikes, alleging that "people who depend on BART, who want to fill their prescriptions" may have been delayed, among others. 

He also touted some drastic numbers, saying the direct cost of the BART strike to the Bay Area was estimated at about $73 million per a weekday. 

"That doesn't include empty tables at Bay Area restaurants, higher day care payments for working parents, or the  overall increase in personal stress throughout the region," Oversier said. "None of these are counted in the economic model used for the BART strike." 

But the union said that management did everything short of inviting them to strike, repeatedly used stalling tactics, making counter-offers that had changes of "point five percent" from their previous offers, and avoiding bargaining for as long as 33 hours at a time. 

Vincent Harrington has represented BART unions in contract negotiations since 1978, but he said this negotiation has had more hardball tactics than he's seen in any negotiation. "This time around, we couldn't even reach an agreement on ground rules," he told the board. 

He also said that management used the media as a way to spread inaccurate information. He wanted to use the hearing as a chance to air the "facts versus myths."

One commonly misreported figure is that BART workers pay only $92 per month into their healthcare, he said. "That doesn't tell the full story. These workers contributed 1.627 percent of their wages into a fund to cover not only the ongoing health care of active employees, but also the retirees. There are 3,000 employees in the plans," he said.

That brings the total to about $180 per person, he said, with a caveat. Some time ago, employer-provided healthcare was capped. "Additional costs beyond that cap would be on the workers and their families, not on BART," he said.

Harrington also brought up a point of contention in negotiations that is familiar to regular BART riders: how bathrooms in the station are routinely locked and unavailable for use.
"We want BART to reopen bathrooms for patrons. We are not aware of a single transit station today that keeps the bathrooms locked. What does that mean for workers and our patrons? Where do they go? That means they relieve themselves in the stations," he said. The bathrooms were locked since the 9/11/01 terrorist attacks at nearly every station. "We asked them to open them up. BART has said no."

Management and the unions both presented their idealized BART systems, with management reiterating their need to invest in new trains and to control pension costs, and unions saying their workers deserve a living wage.

This will be the only public hearing day, and afterward the panel of Jacob Applesmith, Micki Callahan, and Robert L. Balgenort will put together a draft report for Brown, which is due Sunday. 

This could lead to a 60-day cooling off period where no strikes could take place, or Monday morning we could find ourselves with no BART trains and negotiations again at a standstill.

BART union negotiators said that they were willing to talk, and that they could even hammer out a deal with management by Sunday — if management is willing to bargain in good faith.

"It’s like a textbook on how to bargain but not actually be bargaining," Harrington said. "It’s like a tango: you can't do it by yourself very effectively."

Any member of the public that wishes to send a comment about the BART negotiations may do so to communications@dir.ca.gov until 9am tomorrow [Thu/8]. The board said its report, once sent to the governor, would also be made public and likely available on the governor's website.

 

 

 

Comments

Go to Public Employees Salary's Dstabase website for the truth on how much the train drivers and station attendances make a year, I would be happy earning half of what they earn.

Posted by David Sloane on Aug. 07, 2013 @ 5:59 pm

Class envy doesn't wear well on you. Perhaps you should work harder and do something that pays better. Take some computer classes. I hear those google-ites have it real nice. Want something easier? Take a year of police academy. You'll be making 100K for eating donuts and writing tickets in no time.

Posted by Greg on Aug. 07, 2013 @ 6:14 pm

Greg needs to do some research on BART employees, who take home a median page of $117K per year. Here ya go Greg! Run the numbers yourself. Punch in the name of any BART employee you want:

1. Go to: http://www.mercurynews.com/salaries/bay-area
2. Under "Entity", chose "Bay Area Rapid Transit"
3. Click "search"
4. Page 1 of 138 will appear.
5. In the "Page" box, type 69, and click enter. Now a page w/the median annual salary of BART employees will appear.
The median salary is $117,626. This includes $74,000 in base pay, approximately $9,000 in overtime pay, around $6,000 in lump sum payments for unused sick/vacation/comp time [Other], around $10,000 in pension payments, and roughly $5,000 in other pension costs [EE] that legally are supposed to be paid by the employee himself but are covered by BART.
BART employees pay nothing into their own pensions. They get full health benefits for themselves and all dependents for $92 a month. And worst of all, they are on defined-benefit pension plans (just like rich people are) that GUARANTEE 8% annually compounded returns.
These salaries are very generous, and the pension costs are completely unsustainable.

Posted by Troll the XIV on Aug. 07, 2013 @ 7:31 pm

""Take a year of police academy. You'll be making 100K for eating donuts and writing tickets in no time."""

Agreed, Greg, about cops, BART employees, our beloved 'city family' and all other public employees. All overpaid, w/pension plans that will bankrupt California at some point.

Here's a SF fireman for ya:

Michael Quinn, firefighter
$110,847 Base salary
$41,077 Overtime pay (good going Mikey!!!!)
$11,017 Other Lump sum payout: vac, sick, comp or buyout
$19,173 ER Employer contribution to pension
$2,799 Misc Other non-cash paid costs of employment
TOTAL ANNUAL SALARY $183,198
Hope Mike wasn't drinking too much whilst on overtime!
Good bless our 'City Family' of public employees! Working for the public sector here sure does pay well!
to: http://www.mercurynews.com/salaries/bay-area

Posted by Troll the XIV on Aug. 07, 2013 @ 7:35 pm

One of the really, really special perks that BART employees get is this: BART (and hence the public and taxpayers) pays the entire salaries of their union representatives!:

Heeerr's Saul Almanza, who is mentioned in your article:

Saul Almanza, Employee Dev Specialist - SEIU
$85,877 base salary
$833 overtime
$3,732 Other Lump sum payout: vac, sick, comp or buyout
$23,364 Medical, for self and dependents
$10,361 ER Employer contribution to pension
$6,116 Employer contribution to deferred comp
$2,158 Misc Other non-cash paid costs of employment
TOTAL ANNUAL SALARY $134,370
PLUS FULL MEDICAL FOR ALL DEPENDENTS FOR $92 a month!!!

http://www.mercurynews.com/salaries/bay-area

The taxpayers pay this union rep's salary. And he gets a sweeeeet, upper-middle-class 6-figure salary.

Posted by Troll the XIV on Aug. 07, 2013 @ 7:25 pm

Blah blah blah pensions. Blah blah blah heath care. Blah blah blah overpaid.

Blah blah blah.

Posted by anon on Aug. 07, 2013 @ 8:11 pm

Anon's back, with his usual Tourettes Syndrome mumblings.

Posted by Guest on Aug. 13, 2013 @ 7:21 am

Blah blah blah pensions. Blah blah blah heath care. Blah blah blah overpaid.

Blah blah blah.

Posted by anon on Aug. 13, 2013 @ 8:36 am

People are throwing around seemingly huge sums of money, but these sums include pensions, health benefits which may never be used, overtime, vacation benefits, sick days, etc. etc. etc. The actual pay that these folks get for a 40 hour week is not that much. Fire and police are somewhat overpaid, but not transit workers. I don't begrudge them their compensation. If you want to talk about waste, the real waste is in the private sector, where CEO compensation packages in the 10s of *millions* are the norm. How many BART workers could Larry Ellison's compensation package pay for?

Posted by Greg on Aug. 07, 2013 @ 8:27 pm

Greg, I beg to differ.

"People are throwing around seemingly huge sums of money, but these sums include pensions, health benefits which may never be used, overtime, vacation benefits, sick days, etc. etc. etc."

1. The pensions will certainly be 'used.'The average BART employee retires at age 58 on a pension equivalent to 80% of his final salary. That's a sweet deal.

2. Overtime: Averages around $10K annually. You can say employees are overworked, overstressed, but the average employee also takes 20 paid sick days a year at 1.5x standard pay. This suggests that a scam is being played.

3. Health benefits. These are deserved. But they are not 'free.' Since employees pay only $92 a month for it, the rest has to be funded by the public.

In short, BART employees have good salaries and perks going for them, IMHO.

Posted by Troll the XIV on Aug. 07, 2013 @ 8:43 pm

You know - when someone is such a hack or so ignorant as to describe pension benefits "which may never be used" - best to ignore...

Posted by Guest on Aug. 07, 2013 @ 9:05 pm

Blah blah blah pensions. Blah blah blah heath care. Blah blah blah overpaid.

Blah blah blah.

Posted by anon on Aug. 08, 2013 @ 9:06 am

BART pay is too high, we know. But it is the benefits that are totally out of control.

Posted by Guest on Aug. 08, 2013 @ 9:18 am

The great danger of pensions is the assumed rate of return. If pension assets underperform, the public will be on the hook for the difference for decades. Every $1 in the pension fund is expected to multiply to $11 over 30 years. If the real rate of return is 5% instead of 8%, taxpayers will be on the hook for $6 for every $1 in the pension fund at the time of a worker's retirement. This is upwards of $1 million per worker that will have to be paid by the rest of us and our children.

Posted by Guest on Aug. 08, 2013 @ 9:39 am

that the presumed rates haven't been adjusted for a low-inflation, low-rate market.

These plans assume 7% or 8% returns and we may see only half of that, which will leave these funds insolvent. Then either the voters approve massive tax hikes or the municipality or agency goes bankrupt.

I'm not paying a penny more in taxes to fund somebody else's pension when I am already funding my own.

Posted by Guest on Aug. 08, 2013 @ 9:57 am

excessive sick day abuse have no value...?? So if they have no value, why don't the BART employees just give up these benefits...?

So BART employees taking an average of FORTY unscheduled absences a year (that's two months) has no value...Jeez, if all these benefits have no value as you seem to attest, BART and everyone other public entity would be free of operating deficits.

You don't think having full health for all dependents at $90 a month has any value or unlimited health care after five years of employment or whatever insanity BART is on...

And please clarify these pension benefits "that may never be used" or health benefits for an entire family for that matter. I didn't realize BART employees were the pinnacle of fitness.

Ignorance is bliss I guess...

Posted by Guest on Aug. 07, 2013 @ 8:53 pm

Where did Greg say "pension benefits which may never be used?"

Posted by Reading comprehension on Aug. 07, 2013 @ 9:21 pm

He said this:

""People are throwing around seemingly huge sums of money, but these sums include pensions, health benefits which may never be used.""

Posted by Troll the XIV on Aug. 07, 2013 @ 10:52 pm

still collect their pension.

In practice those FREE pension benefits always get used, which is why public sector unions always try desperately to keep them. Who wouldn't? But it's pure greed and selfishness on the part of the workers.

Posted by Guest on Aug. 07, 2013 @ 11:02 pm

I'm a public sector retiree (NYC Transit trackworker) and there is nothing free about my pension. For 25 years I took less take-home pay in exchange for pension benefits when I was no longer able to work. My pension is not a gift but rather is part of what I was paid to work for NYC Transit. Every dollar I receive in pension is either money that Transit put into the pension fund instead of my paycheck or the money made by investing these funds. Pension equals "deferred wages" and "return on investment".

Posted by Jack Frohlich on Aug. 09, 2013 @ 12:24 pm

>>>Pension equals "deferred wages" and "return on investment".

Except when the ROI falls short of assumptions and the public picks up the tab to the tune of $1 million or more per worker

Posted by Guest on Aug. 09, 2013 @ 12:31 pm

"Our" economic system is based on the sanctity of the contract.

Why do you hate capitalism?

Posted by marcos on Aug. 09, 2013 @ 1:24 pm

Marcos is living off the public-pension tit himself. He doesn't want to draw attention to the lavish benefits.

Posted by Guest on Aug. 12, 2013 @ 3:17 pm

are the engines of your ideology, except when you don't approve.

How consistent you are, Mr. Yahweh.

Posted by Guest on Aug. 09, 2013 @ 1:56 pm

So why again are multitudes of people repeating a misquote? Mass psychosis? Or is it just the same person posting under multiple names?

Posted by Reading comprehension on Aug. 07, 2013 @ 11:02 pm

Please let us know how you are going to spin he said something else. The entire point of his post was that it is only the wage an employee gets paid that matters - a comment which is absurd given the staggering costs of these fringe benefits these emloyees receive...

Posted by Guest on Aug. 07, 2013 @ 11:04 pm

Anon gets right to the point.

Pithy logic.

Love it.

Here is a typical sample of station agents/operators and their pay. They all make around $110K annually.

Antonette Bryant, station agent
Base salary $107,161
Overtime: $0 (good on ya, Antonette, for not abusing this one!)
Other (mostly sick leave pay): $1,500
Medical and dental coverage: $12,031
Employer contribution to pension: $12,866
Employee pension contribution paid by employer: $7,606
Employer contribution to deferred compensation: $1,869
Non-cash costs paid by employer: $2,463
TOTAL ANNUAL SALARY: $145,517

Guillermo Ruiz, Station Agent
Base salary $62,739
Overtime: $10,182
Other (mostly sick leave pay): $533
Medical and dental coverage: $10,183
Employer contribution to pension: $8,221
Employee pension contribution paid by employer: $4,853
Employer contribution to deferred compensation: $1,869
Non-cash costs paid by employer: $1,877
TOTAL ANNUAL SALARY: 107,561

Trini Whitaker, Transit Operator
Base salary $66,757
Overtime: $27,299 (WHOA!)
Other (mostly lump-sum for vacation not used): $7,655
Medical and dental coverage: N/A
Employer contribution to pension: $13,466
Employee pension contribution paid by employer: $5,588
Employer contribution to deferred compensation: $0
Non-cash costs paid by employer: $7,848
TOTAL ANNUAL SALARY: 129,942

Posted by Troll the XIV on Aug. 07, 2013 @ 8:36 pm

Two out of three of your own cherry-picked examples make less than 70K p.a. That's not a lot in the Bay Area. Some of them work overtime, but if you're working like a dog over and above your 40 hours then you deserve to get paid. I know, I know, the 8 hour day is such an antiquated concept for those who want to turn back the clock to the 19th century and all, but some of us still believe in labor rights.

Posted by Guest on Aug. 07, 2013 @ 9:35 pm

These are people who have been quoted in the press as needing pay hikes to survive, over the past few days.

Check the database. The data is very revealing.

1. Go to: http://www.mercurynews.com/salaries/bay-area
2. Under "Entity", chose "Bay Area Rapid Transit"
3. Click "search"
4. Page 1 of 138 will appear.
5. In the "Page" box, type 69, and click enter. Now a page w/the median annual salary of BART employees will appear.
The median salary is $117,626. This includes $74,000 in base pay, approximately $9,000 in overtime pay, around $6,000 in lump sum payments for unused sick/vacation/comp time.

BART employees pay nothing into their own pensions. They get full health benefits for themselves and all dependents for $92 a month. And worst of all, they are on defined-benefit pension plans (just like rich people are) that GUARANTEE 8% annually compounded returns.
These salaries are very generous, and the pension costs are completely unsustainable.

Posted by Troll the XIV on Aug. 07, 2013 @ 10:56 pm

Unless you're lying again (I don't feel like checking so I'll take your numbers at face value), it looks like the median salary is just $74,000. Not bad, but not great, considering the median represents someone who's probably put in a good 15-20 years.

Overtime? Well, if you work more, you get paid more. Problem?

Health benefits for $92 a month? That's $92 a month too much. It should be free for everyone. It's important to have -crucial in fact, but it's ridiculous to count that as "compensation." If a senior over 65 makes $24,000/yr in social security in a given year, and in that same year the government paid $300,000 in medical expenses because they have medicare and used it, do we say that the guy made $324,000 that year? That would be ludicrous. He makes exactly the same as another senior who gets $2000/month and used no health care -$24,000/yr.

Like it's been said, it's not fair to count benefits. I don't count future social security earnings as part of my compensation package in the private sector. BART employees don't get social security, but they get a pension. It's not free. Like social security, they earned it. They earned their salary too. Perhaps you think they should contribute to their own salary too.

Posted by Greg on Aug. 07, 2013 @ 11:25 pm

""I don't feel like checking"" .

Too lazy to have a look at that SJ Mercury database, huh?

"Health benefits for $92 a month? That's $92 a month too much. It should be free for everyone."

Yes, heath benefits should be free for everyone. Nobody should have to pay for this stuff. Hospitals should be created out of thin air that are full of doctors and nurses. And we should all ride our unicorns into the sky to get to these hospitals.

Posted by Guest on Aug. 08, 2013 @ 3:09 am

and every little girl should get a free pony.

Posted by Guest on Aug. 08, 2013 @ 5:18 am

Comparing a child's wish list to basic human rights like health care and pensions (things that we can perfectly afford, btw) is just in poor taste.

Posted by Greg on Aug. 08, 2013 @ 7:47 am

"Things we can perfectly afford."

Most people pay for at least some of their own pensions. Most workers pay 7.5% of their wages into Social Security. BART workers pay nothing into their golden defined-benefit pension plans. The public is asking that these workers start paying for at least part of their own pensions. A humble proposal, IMHO.

Yes, healthcare is a human right. But it now costs about $400 a month per person in the US, usually paid partially by an employer, or by the fed gov (Medicare). BART workers pay $92 a month for themselves and all their dependents. A sweet deal.

Making BART workers cover some of these costs is not asking for much.

Posted by Troll the XIV on Aug. 08, 2013 @ 8:37 am

that doesn't mean they should be free. In fact, they are very expensive things to provide, so why shouldn't the BART workers share in paying for them?

I expect hospitals to be there and treat me. I don't expect everyone else to pay for my care so that I don't have to.

Posted by Guest on Aug. 08, 2013 @ 8:44 am

you should push Congress to pass that, along with a clear plan of how to pay for it.

But you do not achieve universal healthcare by taking one very narrow group of workers and giving them free healthcare, pensions and the rest.

The deal the BART workers have is unfair on the rest of us, which is why they are getting so little support from the public according to polls.

Posted by Guest on Aug. 08, 2013 @ 8:54 am

This is what *management* claims is the average salary for BART employees: $71,000. Management's number, not mine. These wild numbers being thrown out there are ridiculous.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/03/san-francisco-bart-rail-strike

I'm surprised you don't throw in the full value of the BART fare that each operator would use while on the job. After all, while they're working, they're also riding BART. For FREE no less!!! If they had to pay those fares like we private sector workers do, they'd probably rack up $100 a day or so. That's a massive benefit! Let's add that to their compensation package!

Posted by Greg on Aug. 07, 2013 @ 11:37 pm

The perks (pension, overtime) have to be included in the pay package that BART employees received. This brings their salary to well over $100,000 a year.

How often does this need to be outlined for Greg until Greg will finally understand?

Posted by Guest on Aug. 08, 2013 @ 3:04 am

He just doesn't think that hedge fund managers or property developers should make that much.

Posted by Guest on Aug. 08, 2013 @ 5:17 am

BART workers are more valuable than those parasites, so of course they should make more.

But no, I think that would be a bit much. Most workers who make that kind of money in the public sector require some higher education. And I've spoken out against those who make that kind of money without one. Mostly it's limited to cops and firefighters. And no, it's not because I have anything against cops and firefighters. It's just that they're the ones who make salaries out of proportion to their jobs.

But yes, I do agree that by far the biggest waste happens in the private sector. Even cops and firefighters' salaries can't hold a candle to the massive waste that goes on at the top of the private sector.

Posted by Greg on Aug. 08, 2013 @ 7:41 am

it's their shareholders that bear the pain, and they get to vote for the management and their pay packages.

But in the public sector it is we the taxpayers (and farepayers also in this case) and so we get to say what is good value and what they make.

Personally I am fine with cops and fire making big bucks because they protect me and my property. The rest of the public sector do jobs that ultimately either aren't necessary at all or that could be outsourced or privatized.

I'd put a transit workers worth at about 40K-50K a year, including benefits.

Posted by Guest on Aug. 08, 2013 @ 8:41 am

I beg to differ with you Guest. You are obviously lazy if you can't even pick a name to post under.

Shareholders do not bear the pain...Its the public that purchase their products or services that bear the pain. Shareholders almost always get a decent return on investment for their shares, its the rest of us that pay more for them to receive it, and of course, the top executives (who vote their own compensation and pay) who are receiving obscene amounts. As long as the shareholders get their share, this will never change. Of course, that's the American Capitalism (supply and demand - cut the supply increase the demand and charge more for it).

Fire, police, and military should be compensated for the possible risk involved in their duties. Anyone willing to place their life and limb in jeopardy for the rest of us should be compensated for it. These are extremely stressful professions (which most accept willingly) to endure the rest of us can enjoy life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness (not to mention your right to voice your opinion pro or con). Having spent my time in the military, I can speak first hand about the importance of having affordable healthcare, and the low wages paid to these heros.

I do agree somewhat with your assessment on pay for the transit workers. Most of these employees do not require a high degree of education, training, or risk to perform their duties. Much of their function is rote, and little more than a bank teller, janitor, or other office worker, some of which is being transferred to computers. Those you don't hear about are the maintenance people taking care of the vehicles, tracks, and electrical workers, therefore there are those that deserve more than $40,000. Medical care is expensive, and medical plans for the average lay person costs hundreds of dollars, not 92.00. I think that medical plans should charge the same for everyone, which would bring down the overall costs. My son earns around $35,000 (non union) and pays $250.00 per month for his health plan which still requires co-pays and does not cover emergency visits unless prior approval is gained from his provider. That's a hell of a note, you could die before you get it. And with all the rhetoric about healthcare in this country, I have yet to see any reform that eliminates the bureaucracy and inane paperwork costing us so much. Oh, to have the days of yore when a doctor cared for his patients, and made house calls. Today, its just how many people they can shove into 15 minute time slots all day long (double booking all the way sung to jingle bells). And speaking of emergency care, the prices the Hospitals charge is also obscene. Medical care is one of the biggest scams in the US. Instead of being fair, all they want is everything you have.

Posted by Poetheraven1 on Aug. 10, 2013 @ 9:59 am

That sounds as lazt as posting as Guest since neither name identifies either of us.

But if you arguing (and it's hard to tell) that public safety workers deserve their pay and transit workers do not, then we agree.

either way, free pensions and just $92 for healthcare is insane.

Posted by Guest on Aug. 10, 2013 @ 10:27 am

It's not just cops and firefighters. Almost all public-sector workers may very good salaries with generous benefits.

Have a look at the SJ Mercury database.

Posted by Troll the XIV on Aug. 08, 2013 @ 8:41 am

driver makes? There is no possible justification or rationale for that.

And why is a BART janitor making over 70K basic plus fabulous benefits? That's three times what a private-sector janitor makes.

Posted by Guest on Aug. 08, 2013 @ 9:16 am

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Posted by anon on Aug. 08, 2013 @ 9:22 am

But it's even worse with the BART workers.

Posted by Guest on Aug. 08, 2013 @ 10:04 pm

Gotta love Greg. "It's not because I have anything against cops and firefighters."

"Want something easier? Take a year of police academy. You'll be making 100K for eating donuts and writing tickets in no time." - Greg

Posted by Guest on Aug. 08, 2013 @ 2:08 pm
So?

Do you have something against writing tickets and eating donuts? I just ate a donut the other day. Nothing wrong with that. I don't like tickets much, but I guess someone has to do it. I probably wouldn't pay someone 150K for that, but it doesn't mean that I have something against them as a group.

Posted by Greg on Aug. 08, 2013 @ 3:02 pm

Just admit it Greg. You hate cops and think all they do is write tickets, eat donuts, and oppress minorities. The whole passive-aggressive, "I don't hate cops but..." schtick is getting tired.

Posted by Guest on Aug. 08, 2013 @ 3:48 pm

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